12.05.18

Elizabeth Holtzman Discusses Her Book, "The Case For Impeaching Trump"

Elizabeth Holtzman has been a principled leader and a persistent voice for equality and accountability since she became the youngest woman ever elected to Congress in 1973, which she remained for forty-two years. But she sees American democratic ideals, and the rule of law in the United States, eroding under President Trump. Her book, "The Case for Impeaching Trump," establishes the requirements for impeachment as set out by the Constitution and proves that President Trump’s actions have already met those requirements. Holtzman makes the definitive, constitutional case that Trump can be impeached―and the process should start now.

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>>> HELLO, EVERYBODY. WELCOME TO BUILD. I'M YOUR HOST, VICTOR KEMLIN. OUR NEXT GUEST REPRESENTED THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES FROM 1973 TO 1981. WHICH MEANS SHE WAS IN THE HOUSE WHEN THEY IMPEACHED RICHARD NIXON. SO ELIZABETH HOLTZMAN KNOWS A FEW THINGS ABOUT THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS. SHE WROTE A BOOK "THE CASE FOR IMPEACHING TRUMP." THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> I'M VERY EXCITED TO BE HERE. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANKS FOR WRITING THIS BOOK. ALL OF US FEEL LIKE THE CASE HAS BEEN MADE, BUT WE NEED SOMEBODY LIKE YOU TO COME FORWARD TO SAY, OH, YES, HE HAS MADE THE CASE FOR HIMSELF TO BECOME IMPEACHED.

>> I WAS ACTUALLY ON THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE THAT CONSIDERED THE QUESTION OF IMPEACHING RICHARD NIXON. IT'S THE ONLY IMPEACHMENT PROCESS, BY THE WAY, THAT'S EVER WORKED IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY. I DO, UNFORTUNATELY, KNOW ABOUT THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS. IT'S A LITTLE NICHE OF KNOWLEDGE. I HOPE TO GOD WE DON'T HAVE TO USE IT AGAIN. I WROTE THIS BOOK BECAUSE I LOOKED AT DONALD TRUMP AND I SAW SO MANY ECHOES OF WHAT HAPPENED DURING WATERGATE. THE GROUNDS WE USED TO IMPEACH RICHARD NIXON WERE CROPPING UP WITH DONALD TRUMP. SO I WROTE THIS BOOK. IT'S A RELATIVELY SHORT BOOK. IT DOESN'T SAY TRUMP SHOULD BE IMPEACHED IMMEDIATELY, BUT IT SAYS THAT THERE IS SO MUCH EVIDENCE IN THE PUBLIC ARENA THAT WE NEED TO START INVESTIGATIONS TO PIN DOWN EVERYTHING, TO DOT THE I'S AND CROSS THE T'S SO WE CAN HAVE SOLID EVIDENCE THAT IMPEACHABLE CRIMES WERE COMMITTED. AND IF THEY WEREN'T, WELL, SO BE IT. BUT WE CAN'T JUST IGNORE WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

>> IF THEY WEREN'T, SO BE IT, BUT DO YOU FEEL LIKE THEY WERE?

>> OH, YEAH, I THINK THERE IS SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE. NOW IT'S REALLY -- AT LEAST ONE INSTANCE -- WE HAD VERY MANY INSTANCES WITH REGARD TO NIXON SO IT WASN'T JUST ONE ITEM.

>> THERE ARE FIVE OR SIX THINGS, RIGHT?

>> THERE WERE THREE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT. ONE DEALT WITH ALL OF THE THINGS HE DID TO OBSTRUCT THE INVESTIGATION INTO WATERGATE. AND THERE WERE MANY, MANY, MANY THINGS. THEN THERE WERE OTHER THINGS THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WATERGATE CALLED AN ABUSE OF POWER. THAT HAD TO DO WITH ILLEGAL WIRE TAPS, THAT HAD TO DO WITH BREAKING INTO ELLSBERG'S PSYCHIATRIST OFFICE TO GET IMAGES TO SMEAR HIM WITH, THAT HAD TO DO WITH CREATING ENEMIES LIST OF POLITICAL OPPONENTS OF RICHARD NIXON, GETTING THE IRS TO DO HARASSING AUDITS. SO THERE WERE A BUNCH OF THINGS THAT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WATERGATE THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS. BUT THE ONE THAT'S MOST OBVIOUS NOW IS THE OFFERING OF PARDONS. THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT RICHARD NIXON AUTHORIZED THE OFFERING OF PRESIDENTIAL PARDONS TO THE BURGLARS WHO BROKE INTO WATERGATE, TO KEEP THEM FROM TALKING TO THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR. IN OTHER WORDS, TO HAVE A COVER-UP WHICH WOULD NOT IMPLICATE HIM, HIS CAMPAIGN OR BE HIS TOP AIDES. WELL, THE COVER-UP WORKED. PARDONS WERE IN FACT OFFERED, AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE GROUNDS, EXPLICITLY ONE OF THE GROUNDS ON WHICH RICHARD NIXON, THE VOTE IN THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, WAS BASED. OKAY. FAST-FORWARD TO DONALD TRUMP. WE KNOW THAT THERE HAVE BEEN REPORTS IN NEWSPAPERS THAT TRUMP'S LAWYERS MAY HAVE OFFERED PARDONS TO MANAFORT, FLYNN, MAYBE OTHERS. THERE WAS DISCUSSION ABOUT IT. BUT WE NEVER HAD INFORMATION UNTIL VERY RECENTLY THAT TRUMP HIMSELF WAS BEHIND IT. NOW TRUMP SAYS, WELL, I'M NOT TAKING A PARDON FOR MANAFORT OFF THE TABLE. WHY SHOULD I? SO BASICALLY HE HIMSELF IS ADMITTING THAT HE IS DANGLING A PARDON IN FRONT OF MANAFORT. WHY IS HE DANGLING A PARDON? BECAUSE MANAFORT IS BEING, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, STRONG AND NOT COOPERATING WITH THE SPECIAL COUNSEL. SO WE HAVE AT LEAST ONE ACTUAL GROUND RIGHT NOW THAT WOULD WARRANT IMPEACHMENT, BUT I THINK YOU NEED MORE THAN THAT. WE HAD MUCH MORE THAN THAT WITH REGARD TO RICHARD NIXON.

>> THERE IS ALSO THE ASPECT OF MANAFORT WHERE APPARENTLY I THINK RUDY GIULIANI EVEN SAID THIS -- I MEAN, WHO KNOWS WHAT RUDY GIULIANI SAYS ANYMORE WHEN HE GETS IN FRONT OF A CAMERA. BUT HE ACTUALLY SAID MANAFORT WAS FAKING THE PLEA SO HE COULD GIVE INFORMATION ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION TO TRUMP'S LAWYERS. THEN AFTER THAT TRUMP SAID HE HASN'T TAKEN A PARDON OFF THE TABLE, WHICH TO ME IS MIND-BOGGLINGLY ILLEGAL, IT SEEMS.

>> IT COULD ALSO BE A CRIME. I'M NOT SAYING IT'S NOT A CRIME, I'M JUST SAYING WHAT I DID WITH REGARD TO IMPEACHMENT. FOR IMPEACHMENT, IT IS A STANDARD GROUND FOR IMPEACHMENT. YOU DANGLE SOMETHING IN FRONT OF SOMEBODY TO KEEP THEM FROM TALKING TO A PROSECUTOR. IF THAT PERSON COULD IMPEACH YOU, THAT'S A CRIMINAL OFFENSE. THERE COULD BE OTHER PARDONING OFFERS WE DON'T KNOW. THAT'S WHAT HAS TO BE INVESTIGATED.

>> WE'RE ABOUT TWO YEARS INTO THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY RIGHT NOW. WHEN DID YOU FIRST START TO SEE A CASE FOR IMPEACHING HIM WAS STARTING TO DEVELOP?

>> I WAS GETTING VERY ANGRY AT TRUMP. I WASN'T GETTING, I WAS ANGRY WITH TRUMP FROM THE GET-GO.

>> ME, TOO.

>> AND I WAS APPALLED AT THE VARIOUS THINGS HE WAS DOING, AND THEN THERE WAS SO MANY THINGS THAT WERE JUST ECHOES OF WATERGATE, AS I SAID. BUT EARLY IN THE SUMMER, LATE SPRING, AN ORGANIZATION ASKED ME TO SEE IF I COULD PUT TOGETHER A CASE FOR IMPEACHMENT, WHAT WOULD IT LOOK LIKE. AND I HAD NEVER SYSTEMICALLY SAT DOWN TO SAY WHAT WOULD A CASE LOOK LIKE AGAINST DONALD TRUMP? AND WHEN I SAT DOWN TO DO IT, TO PUT ALL THE PIECES TOGETHER, I SAID, OH, MY GOD. THERE'S MUCH MORE THAN I EVER THOUGHT AND THE CASE IS MUCH STRONGER THAN I EVER THOUGHT. BECAUSE WE'RE OVERWHELMED EVERY DAY. THIS BIT OF EVIDENCE, THAT BIT OF EVIDENCE, THIS OUTRAGE, THAT OUTRAGE. BUT NO ONE HAS PUT IT TOGETHER IN A PACKAGE, TIED A RIBBON AROUND IT. SO THAT'S WHAT I FINALLY DID. AND WHEN I FINISHED THE MEMO FOR THIS ORGANIZATION, I SAID, YOU KNOW, I THINK I SHOULD WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THIS, SO THAT'S THE GENESIS FOR IT.

>> YOU SAID WE'RE OVERWHELMED BY THIS THING THAT HAPPENS AND THIS THING THAT HAPPENS. DO YOU THINK THAT IF TRUMP WAS IN A SORT OF DELUGE OF CONTROVERSY AND CRIMINAL ACTIVITY EVERY DAY, EVERY OTHER DAY, THAT HE KIND OF MAY HAVE BEEN IMPEACHED ALREADY, THAT ONE OR TWO OF THESE SCANDALS WOULD HAVE STAYED AROUND A LITTLE BIT LONGER?

>> THAT'S POSSIBLE, BUT THE REAL REASON THAT NOTHING HAS HAPPENED IS BECAUSE, SADLY, THE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS HAVE REFUSED TO CONDUCT REALLY SERIOUS AND THOROUGH INVESTIGATION. FOR EXAMPLE, SOME OF THE WITNESSES WHO CAME BEFORE THEM WERE NEVER FULLY QUESTIONED. THEY WEREN'T ASKED TO PRODUCE CERTAIN DOCUMENTS. YOU CAN'T HAVE A HALF-HEARTED INVESTIGATION. WHAT HAPPENED IN WATERGATE WAS THAT YOU HAD A SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE THAT WAS HEADED BY A DEMOCRAT. REPUBLICAN HOWARD BAKER WAS THE SENATOR FROM TENNESSEE AND HE WAS A PARTISAN OF RICHARD NIXON'S. HOWARD BAKER STARTED OUT WITH FAMOUS QUESTIONS BECAUSE HE THOUGHT NIXON WAS INNOCENT. SO HE ASKED EVERY WITNESS, WHAT DID THE PRESIDENT KNOW AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT? HE THOUGHT SINCE THE PRESIDENT DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING AND NEVER DID ANYTHING THAT THESE QUESTIONS WOULD EXONERATE NIXON. BUT EVERY WITNESS WAS COMING BACK AND SAYING, OH, THE PRESIDENT KNEW THIS THEN AND THE PRESIDENT DID THAT THEN, AND SO HE REALIZED THAT THE FACTS WERE THERE AND THEY HAD TO BE PURSUED. AND SO HOWARD BAKER, TOTAL PARTISAN OF RICHARD NIXON'S, BECAME AN ADVOCATE FOR THE TRUTH AND THE FACTS. AND THE INFORMATION THAT WAS PRODUCED BY THE WATERGATE COMMITTEE, SENATE WATERGATE COMMITTEE PRIMARILY ON A BIPARTISAN BASIS, INCLUDED FINDING THE RICHARD NIXON WHITE HOUSE TAPES, WHICH WERE THE FINAL NAIL IN HIS COFFIN. THAT INFORMATION WAS TURNED OVER TO THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE FOR THE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS. SO THAT KIND OF A THOROUGH BIPARTISAN, NO HOLDS BARRED INVESTIGATION HAS NOT BEEN CONDUCTED EITHER ON THE SENATE SIDE OR THE HOUSE SIDE. THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO. YOU CAN'T PULL PUNCHES WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PRESERVING OUR DEMOCRACY.

>> DO YOU THINK REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE AND IN THE HOUSE FACE ANY KIND OF PUNISHMENT FOR DERELICTION OF DUTY?

>> WELL, I THINK SOMETHING HAPPENED AT THE POLLS IN NOVEMBER. SO I THINK WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NOW IS THAT, OF COURSE, SINCE THE DEMOCRATS DO CONTROL THE HOUSE, I THINK THERE WILL BE SERIOUS INVESTIGATIONS. THEY SHOULD BE SERIOUS. NOT GOTCHA INVESTIGATION BUT A SERIOUS INQUIRY. WAS THERE COLLUSION WITH THE RUSSIANS? THAT SEEMS TO BE MUCH MORE APPARENT NOW AND, IN FACT, THE COLLUSION ARGUMENT SEEMS TO BE DRAWING TO A CONCLUSION, BUT THEY NEED TO BE INVESTIGATING EVERYTHING FROM THE EMOLUMENTS -- THE PRESIDENT HAS NOT SEPARATED HIMSELF FROM HIS BUSINESSES. SO THE MONEY THAT GOES INTO HIS BUSINESSES, WHETHER IT'S THE GOVERNMENT OF SAUDI ARABIA, WHETHER IT'S THE GOVERNMENT OF MALAYSIA, WHETHER IT'S THE GOVERNMENT OF OTHER COUNTRIES, THE PROFITS GO RIGHT IN HIS POCKET. THEY SAID, NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT. NO FEDERAL OFFICIAL CAN TAKE ANY MONEY FROM ANY FOREIGN GOVERNMENT, PRESIDENT OR NOT. THE WAY YOU DEAL WITH IT IF YOU'RE PRESIDENT, YOU GO TO CONGRESS AND YOU SAY, YOU KNOW, CONGRESS -- BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION ALLOWS THE CONGRESS TO PERMIT A PRESIDENT TO TAKE MONEY FROM A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT. IT HASN'T OFTEN DONE THAT. BUT TRUMP HAS NEVER GONE TO CONGRESS AND SAID, HEY, LET ME KEEP THIS MONEY. HE JUST SAYS, I DON'T HAVE TO OBEY THE CONSTITUTION, I CAN KEEP WHATEVER MONEY COMES TO ME. AND, OF COURSE, THAT RAISES SOME VERY SERIOUS QUESTIONS. IS OUR POLICY ABOUT THE CROWN PRINCE OF SAUDI ARABIA BASED ON THE FACT THAT HE HAD A WHOLE RETINUE OF PEOPLE STAYING AT TRUMP'S HOTEL IN NEW YORK CITY? FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, GOD KNOWS HOW MANY MILLIONS OF DOLLARS CAME INTO HIS POCKET. IS THAT WHAT'S DETERMINING U.S. POLICY TOWARD SAUDI ARABIA? SAME WITH REGARD TO RUSSIA. IS TRUMP TRYING TO GET A HOLD IN MOSCOW TO BUILD A BIG BUILDING? IS IT DRIVING HIS POLICY TOWARDS RUSSIA, WHICH WAS TO BASICALLY KISS THE GROUND IN FRONT OF PUTIN? THAT'S WHAT THE CONSTITUTION'S FRAMERS TRIED TO PREVENT. THEY WERE VERY WORRIED FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS WOULD COME AND TRY TO BRIBE A U.S. PRESIDENT. HERE WE HAVE A U.S. PRESIDENT SAYING, YEAH, I CAN TAKE MONEY FROM FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS BECAUSE IT'S GOING INTO MY HOTEL AND INTO MY POCKET. IT'S NOT REALLY BARRED BY THE CONSTITUTION. SO THAT'S POTENTIAL GROUND FOR IMPEACHMENT, TOO, AND MUST BE INVESTIGATED.

>> OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE A STUDENT OF THE CONSTITUTION, SOMEONE WHO KNOWS VERY MUCH ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION. ALL THE ARGUMENTS IN THE CASE DISCUSS THE FRAMERS, DISCUSS VERY SPECIFIC DETAILS WITHIN THE CONSTITUTION. HAS HAVING SOMEONE LIKE TRUMP RUNNING THE COUNTRY WHO IS CONSISTENTLY FLOUTING THE CONSTITUTION -- IN A LOT OF WAYS WE'RE SEEING WHERE SOME STUFF DOESN'T WORK, WHERE SOME IS JUST TRADITION OR SOME THAT WE THINK SHOULD BE DONE BECAUSE OF CONCRETE LAW. DO YOU THINK THERE SHOULD BE A REWRITING OR A NEW UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE CONSTITUTION IS IN THIS COUNTRY? DOES IT HOLD UP?

>> I THINK THE FRAMERS HAD A PRETTY GOOD IDEA. WAS IT PERFECT, THE CONSTITUTION, DEFINITELY NOT. IT ENSHRINED SLAVERY. IT ALSO DIDN'T RECOGNIZE THE QUALITY OF WOMEN. SO WE GOT THAT THEY MADE SOME REALLY BIG MISTAKES. BUT THEY HAD SOME PRETTY GOOD IDEAS ABOUT DEMOCRACY ITSELF, AND THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT UNFETTERED POWER WAS A DANGER. THEY UNDERSTAND THAT DEMOCRACY WAS PRECIOUS AND NEEDED TO BE PROTECTED. THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT A PRESIDENT COULD BECOME LIKE A KING AND THREATEN OUR DEMOCRACY. AND THEY PUT THE POWER TO PROTECT THE DEMOCRACY IN THE HANDS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND THE SENATE. THEY DIDN'T PUT IT IN A COURT, THEY PUT IT IN THE CONGRESS BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT PRESIDENTS COULD DO VERY BAD THINGS. THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHEN THEY WROTE THE IMPEACHMENT CLAUSE OF THE CONSTITUTION THAT THERE WOULD BE A RICHARD NIXON OR A DONALD TRUMP, BUT THEY KNEW THERE WOULD BE ROGUE PRESIDENTS IN THE FUTURE AND THEY WANTED TO PROTECT AGAINST THEM. THE REAL ISSUE IS WHY CONGRESS HAS REFUSED TO TAKE UP THE REINS THAT THE FRAMERS GAVE THEM TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THEY CAN JUST IGNORE. THAT'S THEIR RESPONSIBILITY. IF YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO HAS GONE ROGUE WHO FLOUTS THE CONSTITUTION, WHO TRIES TO PUT HIMSELF ABOVE THE RULE OF LAW BY OBSTRUCTING, INTERFERING, IMPEDING AN INVESTIGATION, A TOTALLY LEGITIMATE INVESTIGATION INTO CRIMINAL CONDUCT, THEN CONGRESS HAS TO ACT AND THE PEOPLE HAVE TO DEMAND IT FROM CONGRESS. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED DURING WATERGATE, ULTIMATELY. IT WASN'T CONGRESS THAT DID IT ON ITS OWN. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAID, WE HAVE TO HAVE A DEMOCRACY. WE CAN'T HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO CAN FIRE THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, WE'RE NOT A BANANA REPUBLIC, AND YOU, CONGRESS, HAVE TO DO YOUR JOB. AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

>> IT WAS A DIFFERENT MEDIA ENVIRONMENT DURING NIXON'S ADMINISTRATION. DOES IT FEEL DIFFERENT NOW THAT NO MATTER WHAT THE PRESIDENT DOES, HE BASICALLY HAS A CONTROLLED MEDIA ORGANIZATION THAT WILL GO TO BAT FOR HIM?

>> LOOK, WHEN NIXON RESIGNED AFTER THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE MEMBERS UNANIMOUSLY SUPPORTED HIS IMPEACHMENT, INCLUDING THE MOST CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS, THERE WAS STILL 25% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHO SUPPORTED HIM. YOU KNOW, 25% WILL SUPPORT, WE CAN ASSUME, DONALD TRUMP NO MATTER WHAT. BUT THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE. WE HAVE THE MAJORITY RULE IN THIS COUNTRY AND WE HAVE THE RULE OF LAW. AND IF YOU DECIMATE THAT, WHAT'S A FUTURE FOR ANY OF US? THE REASON THIS COUNTRY IS A STRONG COUNTRY IS BECAUSE WE HAVE A DEMOCRACY HERE. THEN YOU START TAMPERING WITH THAT. WE REALLY ARE UNDERMINING OUR FUTURE AND THAT'S WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE.

>> YOU LAY OUT THE GROUNDWORK, "THE CASE FOR IMPEACHING TRUMP" FOR A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT REASONS. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE STRONGEST REASON IS?

>> WELL, THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS NOW, BUT THE FIRST, THE ONE THAT EVERYBODY, I THINK, IS VERY AWARE OF IS HOW HE'S INTERFERED WITH AND OBSTRUCTED THE INVESTIGATION BY ROBERT MUELLER INTO POSSIBLE COLLUSION OF HIS CAMPAIGN WITH RUSSIA. AND HE'S DONE THINGS THAT ARE KIND OF TOTALLY AMAZING AND OUTRAGEOUS AND UNACCEPTABLE.

>> NO MATTER HOW MUCH ALL OF US DON'T LIKE TRUMP, WE CAN'T HELP BUT GET A LITTLE CHUCKLE WITH HOW TOTALLY CRAZY SOME OF THE STUFF IS THAT HE DOES.

>> RIGHT, WHETHER YOU TAX ON IT, OFFERING PARDONS ON PEOPLE, MAYBE EVEN WITNESS TAMPERING BY WHAT HE'S SAYING.

>> TWEETING.

>> TWEETING, BY THE FIRING OF COMEY. THE LITANY IS HUGE AND I GO INTO IT IN THE BOOK. BUT THAT'S ONLY ONE OF THE THINGS HE'S DONE. THE OTHER THING, WHICH I DON'T GO INTO DEPTH, BECAUSE WE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS AT THAT POINT, IS THE POSSIBILITY OF ACTUAL COLLUSION WITH RUSSIA. NOW IT LOOKS LIKE THERE MAY VERY WELL HAVE BEEN WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE THE CENTRAL NUB OF THIS, WHICH IS WHAT WAS HIS COVER-UP ALL ABOUT? WHAT IT MAY HAVE BEEN ABOUT, WE DON'T 100% KNOW, BUT WE'RE BEGINNING TO SEE THE OUTLINES. THE RUSSIANS PROMISED TRUMP TO HELP HIM IN HIS ELECTION. THEY PROMISED HIM MONEY IN HIS POCKET THROUGH THE BUILDING OF THE TRUMP HOTEL, IN EXCHANGE FOR WHICH, IF HE GOT ELECTED, HE WAS GOING TO REMOVE SANCTIONS. THAT LOOKS LIKE IT WAS. COULD HAVE BEEN THE CENTERPIECE OF THIS. IT WOULD EXPLAIN EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED. WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE PIECES. BUT IF THAT HAPPENED, OBVIOUSLY THAT WOULD BE A HIGH CRIME AND MISDEMEANOR, COLLUDING WITH AND UNDERMINE THE GROUND OF IMPEACHMENT. YOU MAY HAVE TREES ON, BRIBERY AND HIGH CRIMES OF MISDEMEANOR IN ONE PACKAGE IF THAT TURNS OUT TO BE THE CASE. WE DON'T HAVE THE EVIDENCE BUT THE OUTLINES OF THAT ARE BECOMING MUCH CLEARER AND IT'S VERY DISTURBING, TROUBLING AND SHOCKING.

>> ONE OF THE CLASSIC LINES FROM ALL THE PRESIDENT'S MEN IS WHEN DEEP THROAT SAYS TO BERNSTEIN, ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, THESE WERE JUST A COUPLE OF GUYS WHO WEREN'T VERY BRIGHT AND THINGS GOT OUT OF HAND. DOES IT FEEL A LITTLE LIKE THAT WITH TRUMP AND THE TEAM?

>> NO.

>> NO?

>> THE BURGLARS MAY NOT HAVE BEEN THE BRIGHTEST LIGHTS, BUT IT WAS THE GENIUSES AT THE TOP OF THE CAMPAIGN, NIXON'S CAMPAIGN. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES, JOHN MITCHELL, HE WENT TO PRISON BECAUSE HE HELPED, TOO. HE GAVE THE APPROVAL TO THIS PLAN. SO WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT SOME, YOU KNOW, LOW-LEVEL DIMWITS. I'M NOT SAYING JOHN MITCHELL WAS A GENIUS. FAR FROM IT, OBVIOUSLY. WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HE GOT CAUGHT AND THIS WAS A RIDICULOUS IDEA TO BREAK INTO THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE. BUT, ANYWAY, HE WAS THE GUY WHO ORCHESTRATED IT, AND WE KNEW ALSO BEFOREHAND THAT NIXON'S TOP AIDES KNEW ABOUT IT. DID NIXON HIMSELF ORCHESTRATE THAT? WE STILL DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE TO THIS DAY, BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER. NIXON WAS SO INVOLVED IN ILLEGAL SURVEILLANCE OF ALL KINDS AND THE BREAK-IN THAT TOOK PLACE IN WATERGATE ONLY FOLLOWED THE BREAK-IN THAT TOOK PLACE AT ELLSBERG'S PSYCHIATRY OFFICE THAT NIXON KNEW ABOUT AND APPROVED. SO COULD NIXON HAVE ORCHESTRATED THE BREAK-IN? DON'T SAY IT WAS THESE LOWER LEVEL DIMWITS, IT WASN'T. IT WAS AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS. AND IF THERE WAS COLLUSION WITH RUSSIA, IT WASN'T AT THE LOWEST LEVELS. IT WAS AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS. IT WAS DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF. THAT'S WHAT WE SAW IN WATERGATE. NIXON ORCHESTRATED EVERY PART OF IT. EVEN THOUGH HE WAS VERY BUSY AS PRESIDENT, HE ORCHESTRATED EVERY PART OF IT. WE HAD THE TAPES. WE HAD THE WHITE HOUSE TAPES WITH NIXON'S VOICE ON IT, AND HE SAID TO HIS TOP AIDE, HOLD HIM AND YOU GET THE CIA TO STOP THE INVESTIGATION. NIXON'S VOICE, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT, WE HAD THE EVIDENCE. THEY WANTED TO STOP THE INVESTIGATION INTO WATERGATE. TRUMP WANTS TO STOP IN THE SAME WAY THE INVESTIGATION INTO RUSSIAN COLLUSION. NOW WE SEE OFFERS OF THE NEW MANY, AND WE SEE THE FACT OF HELP IN THE ELECTION WHICH TRUMP HAS TOTALLY TRIED TO DENY AND MINIMIZE. HE SAYS, OH, YEAH, RUSSIA, THEY COULD HAVE INTERFERED, BUT YOU KNOW, CHINA COULD HAVE INTERFERED. AND THIS 400-POUND GUY IN NEW JERSEY, HE COULD HAVE BEEN THE REAL CULPRIT. HE ALWAYS HAS TO LOOK TO NEW JERSEY FOR THE FALL GUY.

>> I'M ON MY COMPUTER, WHAT DO I KNOW? RIGHT.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DURING NIXON. THE LAST MONTH OR MONTH AND A HALF AGO, JEFF SESSIONS WAS SORT OF FORCED TO RESIGN BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND MATTHEW WHITAKER HAS CHOSEN TO RECUSE HIMSELF FROM THE INVESTIGATION EVEN THOUGH HE'S BEEN ON RECORD SAYING THE INVESTIGATION IS A SHAM. DO YOU THINK THAT COULD POSSIBLY IMPEDE MUELLER'S INVESTIGATION AT ALL?

>> I DON'T THINK MUELLER IS GOING TO ALLOW HIMSELF TO BE IMPEDED. HE'S A VERY SMART GUY AND HE'S GOT VERY SMART PEOPLE THERE. BUT IF MR. WHITAKER TRIES TO IMPEDE THE INVESTIGATION, HE HIMSELF COULD BE NOT ONLY SUBJECT TO IMPEACHMENT BUT SUBJECT TO PROSECUTION FOR OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. I WOULD BE VERY CAREFUL IF I WERE MR. WHITAKER. VERY CAREFUL.

>> DO YOU THINK HE KNOWS THAT?

>> I THINK HE HAS AN INKLING, BECAUSE THE WORD IS HE'S NOT EVEN SUPERVISING THE INVESTIGATION, THAT ROD ROSENSTEIN IS SUPERVISING IT. HE KNOWS IF HE SUPERVISED IT AND CAME DOWN HARD AND TRIED TO SQUELCH ANYTHING MUELLER DID, HE WOULD BE SUBJECT TO SOME VERY SERIOUS REPERCUSSIONS FOR THAT.

>> WHO HAS A QUESTION? RIGHT HERE. WE'VE MADE THE CASE FOR IMPEACHMENT. THAT'S NOT THE STORY THAT WE HAVE TO FOLLOW, WHICH IS THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE. AND JERRY NADLER IS THE LYNCH PIN IN DECIDING WHAT HAPPENS AT THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, AND AS YOU KNOW, HE SET FORTH A THREE-PART RECALL. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A THREE-PART INTERFERENCE OF A WRONG SO GREAT THAT A PERCENTAGE OF THE OPPOSITION WILL AGREE THAT, YES, IMPEACHMENT WAS NECESSARY. NOW, I DON'T KNOW IF I AGREE WITH THAT TEST BECAUSE YOU SUGGEST THE CONCLUSION HAS TO COME BEFORE THE -- WHEN I WAS THERE AND WE HAD WATERGATE AND NIXON FIRED THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR. UP UNTIL THAT, THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES DIDN'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING. EVEN THOUGH WE HAD ALL THIS TESTIMONY ABOUT NIXON'S WRONGDOING. NOBODY WANTED TO DO ANYTHING F. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CAN ENFORCE CONGRESS TO ACT HERE. THE STANDARD THAT YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT JERRY IS TALKING ABOUT IS BASICALLY THE STANDARD WE USED OURSELVES IN THE IMPEACHMENT OF RICHARD NIXON. THE STANDARD WAS NOT COMMISSION OF A CRIME, THE STANDARD WAS AN EGREGIOUS MISUSE OF THE POWERS OF THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY THAT UNDERMINE THE RULE OF LAW THAT SUBVERTED THE CONSTITUTION OR THAT THREATENED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S CIVIL LIBERTIES. IT WASN'T EGREGIOUS. WE HAVE EVIDENCE THAT PRESIDENT NIXON FILED FALSE TAX RETURNS. HE WAS NOT IMPEACHED ON THOSE GROUNDS. WE DIDN'T THINK. SO THAT WAS THE DIFFERENCE FOR SETTING UP SOMETHING ON ILLEGAL WIRE TAPPING. SO THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE DURING WATERGATE? WHAT WERE THE GROUNDS FOR IMPEACHMENT. THE GROUNDS WERE THE ABUSE OF POWER. THE MORE THINGS CHANGE, THE MORE THEY ARE THE SAME.

>> BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO OTHER QUESTIONS, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN WE DON'T DISCUSS AT ALL, I HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN YOU ANSWER QUESTIONS ON IS BECAUSE EVERYBODY WANTS TO TALK ABOUT NIXON AND IMPEACHMENT. BUT YOU ARE A WOMAN IN CONGRESS IN THE CAPITOL IN 1971 -- '72, EXCUSE ME.

>> WELL, I TOOK OFFICE IN '73.

>> I DON'T BELIEVE BIRTH CONTROL HAD BEEN MADE LEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY, RIGHT?

>> THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN DECIDED. THAT'S HOW FAR BACK. STONE AGE.

>> WHAT WAS THE CAPITOL LIKE AT THAT TIME FOR A WOMAN. WE WERE THE FIRST TWO WOMEN EVER TO SERVE ON THE HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE. BUT THERE WE ARE, WE'RE PART OF THE PROCESS. THEY DIDN'T JUST THROW US OUT AND SAY, YOU ARE WOMEN, YOU CAN'T BE A PART OF THIS. I STILL HAVE PEOPLE COME UP TO ME AND I SAY. I DON'T KNOW HOW ANYBODY CAN BECOME LAWYERS AND DO WHAT YOU'RE DOING. ALSO WE HAD WHAT'S CALLED THE SENIORITY SYSTEM. IT'S BASED ON ELECTIONS. THE MORE ELECTIONS YOU WIN IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, THE MORE POWER YOU GET. THAT'S GOOD FOR PEOPLE WHO COULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST OTHERWISE. IF YOU'RE A WOMAN AND YOU'VE LIVED LONG ENOUGH AND YOU'RE NEXT IN LINE, THEY COULDN'T STOP YOU FROM, OR THEY COULDN'T THERE THEN -- BECOMING THREE TERMS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. AND GAVE ME AN OPPORTUNITY OF POWER, BUT OF COURSE NOW WE HAVE 100 WOMEN IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. WHEN I CAME, THERE WERE FEWER THAN 20. WHAT WE DID WAS -- AND I WAS VERY PROUD TO BE PART OF THIS -- I HELPED -- REPUBLICAN WOMEN FOR MASSACHUSETTS, ON ISSUES AFFECTING THE STATUS OF WOMEN. IT'S STILL THERE AND HAS THE.

>> WHAT WAS IT LIKE WATCHING THIS RECENT MIDTERM ELECTION WHERE THE BLUE AID WAS NEEDED.

>> WHEN I WAS ELECTED, I WAS THE YOUNGEST WOMAN EVER ELECTED. I DIDN'T KNOW I WOULD KEEP THAT RECORD FOR 42 YEARS, WHICH IS A TERRIBLE THING. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROKEN RIGHT AWAY BUT IT WASN'T. I WAS ABLE TO SEE THESE IMPORTANT CHANGES IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND IN THE COUNTRY. SO IT'S GREAT TO SEE -- AND I ALSO THOUGHT, BY THE WAY, THAT AFTER I WAS ELECTED, THERE WOULD BE ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE ELECTED, ALL THE WOMEN. IT'S SO VERY DIFFICULT FOR A WOMAN TO RUN FOR OFFICE. ALL OF US NEED TO BE AT THE TABLE. WOMEN VERSUS MEN, DIFFERENT RELIGIONS, DIFFERENT ACTIONS. THAT'S WHAT WAS SO GREAT ABOUT THIS PAST ELECTION, IT WASN'T REALLY JUST THAT, IT WAS THE STRENGTH OF OUR DIVERSITY AND HOW THAT MAKES US ONE OF THE STRONGEST NATIONS IN THE WORLD.

>> HAS IT SURPRISED THAT YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE, THE REPUBLICANS HAVE A DWINDLING NUMBER OF WOMEN IN THEIR CAUCUSES?

>> I SAW, THERE IS A WOMAN CALLED ELISE STEFANIAK.

>> HIGH FIVED WHEN YOU SAW EACH OTHER?

>> YEAH, AND SHE'S SCARED BECAUSE SHE SAYS, ALL THESE NEW MEMBERS ELECTED ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, ALL THESE WOMEN, WE LOST THE SUBURBAN WOMAN. AND SHE GOT IN TROUBLE FOR POINTING THAT OUT IN 2018. SO IT SHOWS THERE ARE STILL THESE FORCES AT WORK TRYING TO KEEP WOMEN DOWN. BUT IT TOOK A LONG TIME FROM 1973 TO 2018/. YOU JUST CAN'T KEEP THE FORCES OF FREEDOM AND OF OPPORTUNITY. YOU CAN'T RESTRICT THAT. YOU KNOW, THAT WAS A GREAT SIGN FOR AMERICA.

>> DAMN RIGHT. TWO MORE QUESTIONS. WHAT DO WE GOT?

>> FIRST OFF, I JUST WANT TO SAY THANK YOU FOR COMING IN. BUT MY QUESTION IS OUTSIDE OF VOTING, WHICH I HOPE EVERYONE IN HERE DID VOTE, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE THING THAT CIVILIANS CAN DO TO HELP MOVE THIS CASE ALONG?

>> FIRST OF ALL, YOU SHOULD READ MY BOOK, "THE CASE FOR IMPEACHING TRUMP." GIVE IT TO YOUR FRIENDS, BUY IT FOR YOUR FRIENDS, GIVE IT TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY FOR CHRISTMAS, HANUKKAH, NEW YEAR'S, WHATEVER. SERIOUSLY, KNOW WHAT THE FACTS ARE AND THEN CONTACT YOUR REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS AND SAY, YOU GOT TO BE MOVING ON THIS. YOU'VE GOT TO INSIST ON SERIOUS INVESTIGATIONS. WE NEED TO KNOW THE FACTS. IN WATERGATE UNDER NIXON, CONGRESS GOT AT THE FACTS. WE HAVE TRUMP THERE, YOU'VE GOT TO GET AT THE FACTS. WRITE YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS OR VISIT HIS OR HER OFFICE TO SAY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT IT? I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING ABOUT IT. THAT KIND OF PRESSURE IS WHAT LED TO THE IMPEACHMENT. WHEN RICHARD NIXON FIRED ARCHIBALD COX, SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, WASHINGTON WAS FLOODED, TOTALLY FLOODED -- THIS IS OLD FASHIONED, BUT TELEGRAMS, TELEPHONE CALLS, PEOPLE WENT TO THE DISTRICT OFFICES. THE COUNTRY WAS UP IN ARMS AND THEY EXPRESSED IT. AND CONGRESS RESPONDED. IF YOU DO THAT, THAT'S THE KIND OF THING YOU HAVE TO DO.

>> IS THIS NOT HAPPENING NOW?

>> I'M SURE IT IS HAPPENING TO SOME EXTENT, BUT IT HAPPENED MORE.

>> DO YOU THINK IF I SENT THE CONGRESSMAN A TELEGRAM NOW, THEY MIGHT BE SO FLOORED BY MY WHIMSY, THEY MIGHT DO SOMETHING?

>> HE'S SO WHIMSICAL, I'LL TAKE IT UP. WE HAVE TIME FOR ONE MORE QUESTION.

>> SINCE THERE ARE PLENTY OF CASES FOR IMPEACHING TRUMP AND THE MANY SIMILARITIES THAT HAS BEEN MADE OVER THE COURSE OF HIS PRESIDENCY BETWEEN HIM AND NIXON, WHAT WOULD YOU HOPE WOULD BE THE FINAL BLOW FOR CONGRESS TO FINALLY LOOK INTO HIS IMPEACHMENT? LIKE THE LAST THING --

>> NAIL IN THE COFFIN.

>> NAIL IN THE COFFIN, YEAH.

>> I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF NAILS. TO RELY ON JUST ONE DOESN'T WORK. WE HAD MANY ON PRESIDENT NIXON, MANY. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO GET THE EVIDENCE. THAT'S WHAT ULTIMATELY PERSUADED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE REPUBLICANS AND CONSERVATIVE SOUTHERN DEMOCRATS THAT IMPEACHMENT WAS WARRANTED. SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE -- SO THE EVIDENCE IS ONE THING AND THEY HAVE TO BE LOOKING VERY CAREFULLY AT THE EMOLUMENTS, THE MONEY GOING INTO TRUMP'S POCKET BECAUSE OF HIS BUSINESSES. THEY WERE LOOKING AT VERY CAREFULLY TRUMP'S INTERFERENCES WITH THE SPECIAL COUNSEL PROSECUTOR MUELLER, THEY HAD TO BE LOOKING AT THE COLLUSION WITH RUSSIA. THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE CRITICAL. AND ANOTHER PART OF THIS, AND I DIDN'T EMPHASIZE THIS ENOUGH, BUT AS IMPORTANT AS THE SOLID IS EVIDENCE WAS THE BIPARTISAN APPROACH THAT WAS NEEDED. THEY SAID THIS WASN'T GOING TO BE VIEWED AS A PARTISAN DECISION. WHY? BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP WON BY A LANDSLIDE. HE UNDERSTOOD THAT DEMOCRATS WERE JUST THROWING OUT AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT THAT WAS LOCKED IN A LANDSLIDE, THE CHILDREN WOULD NOT THE GENERAL COUNSEL FOR THE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY THAT PETER HIRED. THEY PICKED A REPUBLICAN TO BE OUR COUNSEL.

>> MUELLER ALSO WAS CHOSE TO RUN THE SPECIAL COUNSEL.

>> THAT WASN'T THE DEMOCRATS WHO DID THAT, THAT WAS ROD ROSENSTEIN. THEY WANT IT AS BIPARTISAN, AS FAIR AS POSSIBLE. THAT HAS TO BE PART OF WHATEVER HAPPENS, TO TRY TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY FEELS THAT THE PROCESS IS FAIR, BECAUSE THAT IS REALLY CRITICAL. I'LL TELL YOU ALSO, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE TWO REPUBLICAN COUNSELS RUNNING THE IMPEACHMENT CATEGORY, BUT IT WAS A SMALL GROUP OF CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS AND THE STUDENTS ABOUT THE POWER OF IMPEACH. . IF THEY COULD GET TOGETHER AS A GROUP, CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS, MODERATE REPUBLICANS, THAT COULD BE SOMETHING THE COUNTRY COULD RESPOND TO AS NOT A PARTISAN EFFORT TO GET RID OF THE PRESIDENT. THOSE ARE THE TWO THINGS THAT ARE CRITICAL. SOLID EVIDENCE. WHEN YOU THAT YOU CAN ABOUT PEOPLE CALLING THEIR CONGRESSWOMAN, CONGRESS. HAVE YOU FOUND THAT CONGRESS IS MORE INVOLVED. WHEN WE WERE AT WAR, IT FELT LIKE MORE PEOPLE WERE ENGAGED.

>> IF WE HAD A SILVER LINING, SURE. WE TAKE A LOT OF THINGS FOR GRAND IN THIS -- GRANTED IN THIS. IT REQUIRED CONSTANT VIGILANCE. WHEN THEY SAID, YOU KNOW, IN 2016, I DON'T HAVE TO VOTE, MY VOTE DOESN'T COUNT. WE SEE NOW HOW CLOSE ELECTIONS ARE AND THAT EVERYBODY'S VOTE COUNTS. MANY, MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING MANY, MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE ON THAT FIRST AMENDMENT. I THINK NONE OF US CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OUR DEMOCRACY. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TO PROTECT. NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO PROTECT THIS COUNTRY. IN THE END IT'S GOING TO BE US.

>> HER BOOK MAKES THE FIGHT FOR IMPEACHMENT. LET'S GIVE ELIZABETH HOLTZMAN A HAND.

>> THANK YOU. [ APPLAUSE ]

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